Fausto Carmona, allegedly Icon SMI |
His older age may explain why Carmona peaked during his Age 23 season, when Heredia was actually already 26.
Let's look at comps for Carmona at his listed age vs. his alleged real age.
Over the last 4 seasons, Carmona has pitched to an 81 ERA+ over 645 innings. Based on his listed age, those were his Age 24, 25, 26, and 27 seasons.
Here are pitchers who, for Ages 24-27 pitched at least 600 innings and had an ERA+ between 76 and 86:
Rk | IP | From | To | G | GS | BB | SO | Tm | |||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
1 | Steve Arlin | 670.1 | 85 | 1970 | 1973 | 110 | 100 | 305 | 416 | 3.95 | SDP |
2 | Fausto Carmona | 645.0 | 81 | 2008 | 2011 | 111 | 111 | 272 | 370 | 5.01 | CLE |
3 | Zach Duke | 664.1 | 85 | 2007 | 2010 | 112 | 111 | 172 | 330 | 4.90 | PIT |
4 | Sammy Ellis | 824.1 | 86 | 1965 | 1968 | 159 | 126 | 305 | 510 | 4.24 | CIN-CAL |
5 | Dan Griner | 608.1 | 84 | 1912 | 1915 | 120 | 75 | 184 | 219 | 3.60 | STL |
6 | Jimmy Haynes | 609.0 | 84 | 1997 | 2000 | 109 | 104 | 308 | 380 | 5.38 | OAK-MIL |
7 | Russ Kemmerer | 606.2 | 83 | 1957 | 1959 | 117 | 84 | 218 | 282 | 4.67 | TOT-WSH |
8 | Lew Krausse | 701.0 | 80 | 1967 | 1970 | 164 | 95 | 244 | 416 | 4.15 | KCA-OAK-MIL |
9 | Randy Lerch | 607.0 | 85 | 1979 | 1982 | 117 | 99 | 217 | 239 | 4.40 | PHI-MIL-TOT |
10 | Art Mahaffey | 651.1 | 83 | 1962 | 1965 | 123 | 99 | 243 | 406 | 4.34 | PHI |
11 | Phil Ortega | 754.0 | 84 | 1964 | 1967 | 136 | 119 | 263 | 438 | 3.96 | LAD-WSA |
12 | Jim Pastorius | 727.0 | 78 | 1906 | 1909 | 97 | 84 | 278 | 205 | 3.12 | BRO |
13 | Doc Scanlan | 644.2 | 85 | 1905 | 1907 | 88 | 76 | 292 | 314 | 3.09 | BRO |
14 | Bill Steele | 605.0 | 81 | 1911 | 1914 | 120 | 71 | 211 | 211 | 4.11 | STL-TOT |
15 | Fred Talbot | 627.2 | 80 | 1965 | 1968 | 131 | 96 | 255 | 330 | 4.10 | KCA-TOT-NYY |
16 | Happy Townsend | 773.2 | 81 | 1903 | 1906 | 107 | 83 | 263 | 330 | 3.37 | WSH-CLE |
17 | Herm Wehmeier | 628.1 | 84 | 1951 | 1954 | 137 | 78 | 311 | 270 | 4.78 | CIN-TOT |
Not exactly an inspiring bunch...Here's what these guys did for the rest of their careers after Age 27:
Rk | From | To | Age | G | GS | IP | Tm | |||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
1 | Steve Arlin | 1974 | 1974 | 28-28 | 27 | 22 | 107.2 | 6.19 | 58 | TOT |
2 | Zach Duke | 2011 | 2011 | 28-28 | 21 | 9 | 76.2 | 4.93 | 80 | ARI |
3 | Sammy Ellis | 1969 | 1969 | 28-28 | 10 | 5 | 29.1 | 5.83 | 67 | CHW |
4 | Dan Griner | 1916 | 1918 | 28-30 | 15 | 6 | 65.1 | 2.48 | 113 | STL-BRO |
5 | Jimmy Haynes | 2001 | 2004 | 28-31 | 88 | 85 | 478.2 | 4.98 | 86 | MIL-CIN |
6 | Russ Kemmerer | 1960 | 1963 | 28-31 | 159 | 14 | 367.1 | 4.12 | 92 | CHW-TOT-HOU |
7 | Lew Krausse | 1971 | 1974 | 28-31 | 97 | 33 | 309.2 | 3.87 | 91 | MIL-BOS-STL-ATL |
8 | Randy Lerch | 1983 | 1986 | 28-31 | 67 | 9 | 129.2 | 5.14 | 70 | TOT-SFG-PHI |
9 | Art Mahaffey | 1966 | 1966 | 28-28 | 12 | 5 | 35.0 | 6.43 | 57 | STL |
10 | Phil Ortega | 1968 | 1969 | 28-29 | 36 | 16 | 123.2 | 5.31 | 56 | WSA-CAL |
11 | Doc Scanlan | 1909 | 1911 | 28-30 | 75 | 57 | 472.1 | 2.95 | 101 | BRO |
12 | Fred Talbot | 1969 | 1970 | 28-29 | 46 | 18 | 147.2 | 4.45 | 82 | TOT-OAK |
13 | Herm Wehmeier | 1955 | 1958 | 28-31 | 114 | 75 | 578.0 | 4.17 | 94 | PHI-STL-TOT |
Wow...not a lot of success here. None of these guys pitched past Age 31. Only Scanlan managed an ERA+ over 100 with 100 innings.
Now, let's look at Carmona's comps if he's actually 31 now, meaning that his last 4 years covered his Age 27 to Age 30 season. (Same criteria otherwise--at least 600 IP and ERA+ between 76 and 86):
Rk | IP | From | To | G | GS | BB | SO | Tm | |||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
1 | Dick Bosman | 674.2 | 82 | 1971 | 1974 | 118 | 106 | 194 | 329 | 4.16 | WSA-TEX-TOT-CLE |
2 | Dave Bush | 660.0 | 85 | 2007 | 2010 | 118 | 112 | 194 | 439 | 4.92 | MIL |
3 | Don Carman | 648.1 | 85 | 1987 | 1990 | 179 | 88 | 263 | 380 | 4.47 | PHI |
4 | Ownie Carroll | 610.2 | 78 | 1930 | 1933 | 113 | 75 | 179 | 136 | 4.73 | TOT-CIN-BRO |
5 | Kevin Correia | 607.0 | 80 | 2008 | 2011 | 113 | 104 | 214 | 400 | 4.88 | SFG-SDP-PIT |
6 | Alex Ferguson | 637.2 | 84 | 1924 | 1927 | 124 | 83 | 261 | 216 | 4.93 | BOS-TOT-WSH-PHI |
7 | Jack Fisher | 744.0 | 85 | 1966 | 1969 | 146 | 106 | 196 | 379 | 4.09 | NYM-CHW-CIN |
8 | Chick Fraser | 1107.0 | 85 | 1901 | 1904 | 140 | 128 | 403 | 438 | 3.73 | PHA-PHI |
9 | Ross Grimsley | 748.2 | 86 | 1977 | 1980 | 127 | 115 | 218 | 208 | 4.33 | BAL-MON-TOT |
10 | Andy Hawkins | 701.1 | 84 | 1987 | 1990 | 119 | 113 | 283 | 314 | 4.52 | SDP-NYY |
11 | Tom Hughes | 811.2 | 85 | 1906 | 1909 | 129 | 91 | 238 | 434 | 2.87 | WSH |
12 | Jesse Jefferson | 607.0 | 82 | 1976 | 1979 | 117 | 82 | 256 | 284 | 5.00 | CHW-TOR |
13 | Si Johnson | 603.2 | 83 | 1934 | 1937 | 128 | 81 | 197 | 216 | 4.80 | CIN-TOT-STL |
14 | Dennis Martinez | 726.2 | 82 | 1982 | 1985 | 139 | 115 | 232 | 327 | 4.88 | BAL |
15 | Harry McIntire | 991.2 | 84 | 1906 | 1909 | 139 | 114 | 349 | 362 | 2.92 | BRO |
16 | Darren Oliver | 618.2 | 84 | 1998 | 2001 | 108 | 108 | 247 | 359 | 5.63 | TOT-STL-TEX |
17 | Mike Scott | 667.2 | 84 | 1982 | 1985 | 128 | 110 | 229 | 356 | 4.11 | NYM-HOU |
18 | Claude Willoughby | 639.2 | 83 | 1926 | 1929 | 166 | 73 | 315 | 127 | 5.54 | PHI |
Now this looks like at least a somewhat better group of pitchers. Here's how they did for the rest of their careers from Age 31 onwards:
Rk | From | To | Age | G | GS | IP | Tm | |||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
1 | Dick Bosman | 1975 | 1976 | 31-32 | 55 | 39 | 263.1 | 3.83 | 93 | TOT-OAK |
2 | Dave Bush | 2011 | 2011 | 31-31 | 17 | 3 | 37.1 | 5.79 | 78 | TEX |
3 | Don Carman | 1991 | 1992 | 31-32 | 30 | 0 | 38.1 | 5.40 | 72 | CIN-TEX |
4 | Ownie Carroll | 1934 | 1934 | 31-31 | 26 | 5 | 74.1 | 6.42 | 61 | BRO |
5 | Alex Ferguson | 1928 | 1929 | 31-32 | 42 | 25 | 149.1 | 6.63 | 68 | PHI-TOT |
6 | Chick Fraser | 1905 | 1909 | 31-35 | 119 | 97 | 874.1 | 2.76 | 100 | BSN-CIN-CHC |
7 | Ross Grimsley | 1982 | 1982 | 32-32 | 21 | 0 | 60.0 | 5.25 | 77 | BAL |
8 | Andy Hawkins | 1991 | 1991 | 31-31 | 19 | 17 | 89.2 | 5.52 | 71 | TOT |
9 | Tom Hughes | 1911 | 1913 | 32-34 | 101 | 65 | 548.2 | 3.48 | 93 | WSH |
10 | Jesse Jefferson | 1980 | 1981 | 31-32 | 56 | 24 | 205.1 | 4.65 | 87 | TOT-CAL |
11 | Si Johnson | 1938 | 1947 | 31-40 | 207 | 100 | 868.1 | 3.98 | 90 | STL-PHI-TOT-BSN |
12 | Dennis Martinez | 1986 | 1998 | 31-43 | 377 | 319 | 2231.1 | 3.34 | 119 | TOT-MON-CLE-SEA-ATL |
13 | Harry McIntire | 1910 | 1913 | 31-34 | 58 | 39 | 349.2 | 3.63 | 85 | CHC-CIN |
14 | Darren Oliver | 2002 | 2011 | 31-40 | 422 | 52 | 714.0 | 3.93 | 116 | BOS-COL-TOT-NYM-LAA-TEX |
15 | Mike Scott | 1986 | 1991 | 31-36 | 172 | 171 | 1183.1 | 3.07 | 117 | HOU |
16 | Claude Willoughby | 1930 | 1931 | 31-32 | 50 | 26 | 178.2 | 7.40 | 71 | PHI-PIT |
Yeah, that's somewhat better. Dennis Martinez and Mike Scott pitched a lot more innings at a good level, and Darren Oliver is still going strong. But there were plenty of flame-outs too, with more than half of these guys pitching no more than 2 more seasons.
The basic lesson here is garbage in, garbage out. There aren't too many pitchers to put up such a tough 4-year stretch and then discover a lot more success later.
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