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Matty Alou

Posted by Andy
Matty Alou passed away unexpectedly yesterday.

Alou was a good player and was a top centerfielder in the game from 1966 to 1969 when he had a slash line of .335/.369/.410, good for a 124 OPS+.

He was a .307 hitter for his career, but check out the players with the most career plate appearances, a batting average of at least .300, and an OPS+ no better than 105:

Rk Player PA BA OPS+ From To G AB R 2B 3B HR RBI OBP SLG OPS Pos
1 Stuffy McInnis 8623 .307 105 1909 1927 2129 7822 872 312 101 20 1062 .343 .381 .723 *3/6547
2 Lloyd Waner 8326 .316 99 1927 1945 1993 7772 1201 281 118 27 598 .353 .393 .747 *87/945
3 Charlie Jamieson 7488 .303 101 1915 1932 1783 6560 1062 322 80 18 552 .378 .385 .763 *79/813
4 Placido Polanco 7142 .301 97 1998 2011 1719 6534 948 320 32 101 681 .346 .406 .752 *456/7D3
5 Billy Goodman 6446 .300 99 1947 1962 1623 5644 807 299 44 19 591 .376 .378 .754 435/796
6 Matty Alou 6220 .307 105 1960 1974 1667 5789 780 236 50 31 427 .345 .381 .726 *8973/1D
7 Joe Vosmik 6084 .307 104 1930 1944 1414 5472 818 335 92 65 874 .369 .438 .807 *7/98
8 Earl Sheely 5263 .300 104 1921 1931 1235 4471 572 244 27 48 747 .383 .399 .782 *3
9 Ethan Allen 4765 .300 93 1926 1938 1281 4418 623 255 45 47 501 .336 .410 .745 *879
10 Rip Radcliff 4436 .311 97 1934 1943 1081 4074 598 205 50 42 533 .362 .417 .779 *79/3
11 Freddy Leach 3996 .307 102 1923 1932 991 3733 543 196 53 72 509 .341 .446 .787 *78/93
12 Lew Fonseca 3724 .316 103 1921 1933 937 3404 518 203 50 31 485 .355 .432 .788 34/75961
13 Homer Summa 3318 .302 92 1920 1930 840 3001 413 166 34 18 361 .346 .398 .743 *9/785
14 Bob Dillinger 3201 .306 100 1946 1951 753 2904 401 123 47 10 213 .363 .391 .754 *5/6
15 Sammy Hale 3185 .302 93 1920 1930 883 2915 422 157 54 30 392 .336 .424 .760 *5/87496
Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Play Index Tool Used
Generated 11/3/2011.

These are all guys who tend to be a bit overrated thanks to the flashy batting average without a lot of on-base or extra-base ability beyond that.

Notice that most of these guys played a long time ago. If we limit it to players from 1960 on, the list gets a lot shorter:

Rk Player PA BA OPS+ From To G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI OBP SLG OPS Pos
1 Placido Polanco 7142 .301 97 1998 2011 1719 6534 948 1966 320 32 101 681 .346 .406 .752 *456/7D3
2 Matty Alou 6220 .307 105 1960 1974 1667 5789 780 1777 236 50 31 427 .345 .381 .726 *8973/1D
3 Starlin Castro 1221 .304 105 2010 2011 283 1137 144 346 67 14 13 107 .343 .422 .766 *6
4 Norris Hopper 440 .316 90 2006 2008 168 396 60 125 15 2 1 20 .367 .371 .738 /879
5 Dee Gordon 233 .304 92 2011 2011 56 224 34 68 9 2 0 11 .325 .362 .686 /*6
6 Lorenzo Cain 181 .302 103 2010 2011 49 169 21 51 12 1 1 14 .343 .402 .745 /*897
7 Jose Ortiz 136 .301 103 1969 1971 67 123 14 37 9 1 0 6 .358 .390 .748 /*897
8 Jose Constanza 119 .303 100 2011 2011 42 109 21 33 1 1 2 10 .339 .385 .724 /798
9 Eddy Garabito 102 .307 97 2005 2005 42 88 15 27 5 0 1 8 .384 .398 .782 /46
Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Play Index Tool Used
Generated 11/3/2011.

Those are the only guys to do it with at least 100 career plate appearances.

I think Placido Polanco is a pretty good comp for Alou, actually--at least offensively. Polanco's oWAR is 23.4 while Alou's was 24.5. Polanco has a pretty big edge defensively.
at 7:00 AM

40 comments:

  1. EdNovember 4, 2011 at 7:30 AM

    On a somewhat related topic...I saw the notice last night and spent a few minutes looking at the stats for all the Alou brothers. I noticed that Jesus played for 15 seasons, compiling over 4500 PAs and yet has a negative WAR. Anyway, just wanted to suggest that for a future topic: guys that meet a certain threshold for playing time, yet have a negative WAR.

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  2. AdamNovember 4, 2011 at 7:46 AM

    Most of these guys played all over the field. I remember Alou played a lot at first for the Cardinals.

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  3. AdamNovember 4, 2011 at 7:56 AM

    By the way, I'm really glad you guys are back at it. Thanks.

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  4. TristramNovember 4, 2011 at 8:19 AM

    I guess I didn't know Matty very well. I always pictured him as a Giant, probably because of the time the three Alous were together. Didn't realize all of his best years and 75% of his WAR value came with the Pirates.

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  5. TristramNovember 4, 2011 at 8:23 AM

    By the way, who should be the poster child for this type of hitter? For low average, low value home run hitters we can refer to Kingman or Deer. Who is the prototypical high average, low power, low speed, low walk guy?

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  6. AndyNovember 4, 2011 at 8:27 AM

    By the way, who should be the poster child for this type of hitter?

    Uhh, how about Alou or Polanco?

    ReplyDelete
  7. EdNovember 4, 2011 at 8:38 AM

    @6 Andy Actually since Lloyd Waner's in the Hall of Fame, seems like he makes a bit more sense for the "poster child".

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  8. Brian WellsNovember 4, 2011 at 8:57 AM

    @7 Lloyd Waner was generally considered to be the fastest runner in the NL during the late 20`s and early 30`s with the possible exception of Kiki Cuyler.No low speed

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  9. The MurphNovember 4, 2011 at 9:35 AM

    Jose "Georgy" Constanza! His numbers may be frozen in time unless someone gives him another shot. Dude had an inexplicable first 3 weeks in the Bigs (at least a dozen infield hits and an improbable oppo homer)before cold reality noticed him and put a stop to it.

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  10. birtelcomNovember 4, 2011 at 9:58 AM

    Bill Buckner might be a good "poster child", if he weren't already infamous for something else; also Buckner in terms of power was more Polanco than Alou.

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  11. John AutinNovember 4, 2011 at 10:17 AM

    @5, Tristram: "Who is the prototypical high average, low power, low speed, low walk guy?"

    Assuming we want someone pretty famous, I nominate Doc Cramer. Although he was a 5-time All-Star and 5-time MVP-vote-getter, and compiled a .296 with 2,705 hits, his career OPS+ was just 87 thanks to a high-average context, low walk totals, and no HR power. He also had 62 SB and 73 CS.

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  12. Artie ZNovember 4, 2011 at 10:35 AM

    @1 - I found 51 players with 1000+ games and 1000+ PAs (needed that to remove pitchers like Gossage, Eck, etc.) and a "negative" career WAR (Willie Montanez and Don Kolloway would make Bluto proud with WARs of -0.0).

    The Mets from 1979-1981 employed a middle infield that consisted of Doug Flynn and Frank Taveras. Both played over 1000 games and had over 4000 plate appearances in their careers. Flynn ended up with -12.7 WAR for his career while Taveras had -1.0 WAR for his. With that combination manning the middle infield the Mets managed to go 171-256 from 1979-1981.

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  13. topper009November 4, 2011 at 10:57 AM

    So did the Alou bros ever start a game together in all 3 OF spots?

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  14. BSKNovember 4, 2011 at 11:00 AM

    Did Tony Gwynn walk too much to be the poster child? He wasn't great when it came to BB and his high OBPs are largely a function of his high batting averages. He averaged 52BB/162 and had an OBP 50 points higher than his BA. All the guys on this list have a BA/OBP gap of between 30 and 80.

    Looking more closely, it appears that it is moreso his power that separates Gwynn from the rest of these guys. I never thought of Gwynn has a power hitter, and his HR totals certainly suggest otherwise, but he seemed to rack up enough 2Bs to keep the SLUG lofty.

    On a note related to style only, is it possible to get the author of the blog post featured more prominently at the top of the post?

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  15. AndyNovember 4, 2011 at 11:01 AM

    I don't think they started a game together but did all appear in the outfield at the same time in the same game. It happened in this game for the first time:

    link here

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  16. AndyNovember 4, 2011 at 11:02 AM

    Been looking into that, BSK @14, I'll see what I can do.

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  17. John AutinNovember 4, 2011 at 11:23 AM

    Followup on the 3 Alou brothers: They definitely never started a game together, nor did they ever all get a hit in the same game.

    They were only together for one year, 1963, and only Felipe was a regular that year. Matty was a bench player who started just 6 games that year, while Jesus was a September rookie call-up who got just 3 starts and 25 PAs.

    They did all bat in the same game 6 times: September 10, 11, 13, 21, 22 and 25.

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  18. bluejaysstatsgeekNovember 4, 2011 at 11:27 AM

    #15, Andy:

    And in that game, Filipe Alou played all three OF spots, moving from RF to LF when Jesus replaced McCovey and from LF to CF when Matty replaced Mays.

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  19. AnonymousNovember 4, 2011 at 11:56 AM

    In retrospect you really have wonder how Doug Flynn could get 4000+ PA with a career .560 ops?? By comparison Rick Rhoden had a career .576 ops. I mean on some level I could understand the Mets feeling compelled to play Flynn because of the Seaver trade, but Montreal giving Flynn 1000 PA from '82-84 makes no sense in hindsight.

    Second Base was like a black hole for those '79-84 Expos. They might have won 3-5 Division titles with a good second baseman. Heck, they might have won 3 Division titles with an average second baseman.

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  20. John AutinNovember 4, 2011 at 12:09 PM

    @19 -- Let's not exonerate the immortal Chris Speier, who held down (literally) Montreal's SS spot for 5 of those 6 years and compiled a grand total of 3.0 WAR

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  21. Kahuna TunaNovember 4, 2011 at 12:19 PM

    From the ESPN story: "Alou and his wife celebrated their 49th wedding anniversary Oct. 27."

    October 1962 was quite a month for Matty Alou. RIP.

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  22. MichaelNovember 4, 2011 at 12:24 PM

    Poster children should look to Dick Groat. Hit over .300 four times, won the batting title in 1960 (and the MVP),
    39 HR's and 14 SB-for his career.

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  23. Brian WellsNovember 4, 2011 at 12:34 PM

    This comment has been removed by the author.

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  24. AnonymousNovember 4, 2011 at 1:34 PM

    @20 John A,

    Yeah, I kind of forgot that Speier played that long for the Expos, something like 3200 PA from 1977-1984. Speier was the full-time Expos SS from 1977-78. In the '79-84 time period, Speier was really only the full time SS in 1980-1982. On the '79, 83-84 teams, they'd use guys like Bryan Little, Angel Salazar, Daryl Thomas, Jim Mason even Rodney Scott and Doug Flynn.

    But your point is well taken, there was really a huge hole in both the SS and the 2b positions on those '79-84. Even a Bill Russell + Rob Wilfong middle infield might have given them 3 division titles.

    At least Speier was kept in the 8 hole in the batting lineup. The second baseman Rodney Scott on the other hand was given 1300 plate appearances in '79-80 and he put up a .606 OPS and a .313 on base %, ouch! One of the strangest stats I've even seen was Rodney Scott leading the league in triples in 1980 with a .293 slugging percentage. It almost looks like a typo. That has to be the lowest slugging percentage for a Triples leader in BB history.

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  25. Frank ClingenpeelNovember 4, 2011 at 1:35 PM

    One of the Alous -- I think it was Matty, in fact -- was asked to comment on the situation when the Dominican president was assassinated.

    The quote in the San Francisco Chronicle? "They saud they didn't do it."

    May God receive you as graciously as you have graced us with your presence, Matty. And condolences to the other Alous.

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  26. DaveZNovember 4, 2011 at 2:11 PM

    Checked his baseball-reference page today...wow, he had a pretty sick 4 or 5 season run. Didn't realize he was that good.

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  27. John AutinNovember 4, 2011 at 2:30 PM

    Some unordered thoughts about Matty Alou’s career:

    -- His .342 BA to win the 1966 batting title, in his first year with Pittsburgh, was a huge surprise. Alou had batted .260 in over 1,000 AB with SF, and hit just .231 the year before in 324 AB. But it was no fluke; he followed the .342 with marks of .338, .332 and .331, giving him 4 of the top 20 qualifying seasons in that decade.

    -- Since Alou, only 3 men have batted at least .330 for 4 straight years: Rod Carew (6 straight), Wade Boggs (5) and Albert Pujols (4).

    -- His 231 hits in 1969 were the most in MLB since 1937 (Joe Medwick) and were not matched again until 1977 (Carew). His 698 AB that year also set a record that stood until 1975.

    -- In the 1972 ALCS, Alou had 2 doubles each in games 3 and 4, becoming the first ever with multiple doubles in 2 straight postseason games. (The feat has been matched once since then, by Billy Hatcher in 1990.) One of Alou’s doubles gave Oakland a 10th-inning lead in game 4, putting them on the brink of the World Series, but Detroit rallied to force game 5.

    -- Alou went 8 for 21 in that ALCS, but just 1 for 24 in the ’72 WS, one of the worst batting performances in WS history, despite putting the ball in play every time. (He nevertheless received an intentional walk in game 7.)

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  28. TristramNovember 4, 2011 at 2:39 PM

    Thanks for the replies on a poster child. I was looking for a way to say "In the Lloyd Waner/Doc Cramer Hall of Fame, Matty would surely wear a Pirates hat". The question of the poster child seemed bigger and interesting though.

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  29. AdamNovember 4, 2011 at 2:44 PM

    Just saw the tweet mentioning the rebirth. I'm so happy! I took the BBref blog off my RSS reader, and was feeling sad about it for like an hour. Happy as hell to see you guys back posting more of the same stuff!

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  30. topper009November 4, 2011 at 3:00 PM

    @27,
    Tony Gwynn hit over .330 for 5 straight seasons from 1993-1997,

    Todd Helton just missed by thinnest of margins,
    2000 .372
    2001 .336
    2002 .329
    2003 .358
    2004 .347

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  31. GadflyNovember 4, 2011 at 3:04 PM

    Bob Forsch just died; looked fine throwing out the WS ceremonial pitch. http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/7189425/bob-forsch-former-st-louis-cardinals-star-pitcher-dies-61

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  32. BSKNovember 4, 2011 at 3:44 PM

    Topper-

    My guess is Gwynn might not show up on PI searches because of the strike shortened seasons. You'd have to change the criteria for "qualifying" to see him show up.

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  33. John AutinNovember 4, 2011 at 4:35 PM

    @30, Topper009 -- I meant to say "qualified seasons." Although he won the batting title in 1996, Gwynn was 4 PAs shy of the qualifying number; he won the title on the exception.

    Naturally, my statement was based on a P-I search for qualifying seasons.

    Applying the spirit of the term "qualifying," I would have to agree that Gwynn's 1996 should be included, and thus he did have 5 straight qualifying seasons. I have to add that there may be others who meet the same criteria.

    It's a bit of a sticky wicket, though, whether to include Gwynn's '96 season. Consider that, had he batted the very same .353 in the 1930 NL while falling a few PAs short of the qualifying number, his BA would not have cracked the top 10, and so the modern exception would have been irrelevant.

    The question then becomes: For the purposes of a statement like the one I made, does it make sense to treat differently a .353 BA that's 4 PAs short of the qualifying number, based on whether it occurred in 1996 or 1930?

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  34. EdNovember 4, 2011 at 7:11 PM

    @8 Thanks, missed the "low speed" part of the poster child.

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  35. EdNovember 4, 2011 at 7:13 PM

    @12 Thanks for the research on players with negative WAR and significant playing time.

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  36. Johnny TwistoNovember 4, 2011 at 8:20 PM

    Doc Cramer is a good pick. A couple months ago back at B-R, someone was actually trying to make a case for him for the HOF. If you would vote for Cramer, you're essentially saying everyone who lasts 15 seasons in MLB should make the Hall.

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  37. StevenNovember 5, 2011 at 1:53 AM

    Another R.I.P. from my 1966 baseball cards. Three starters remain from that heavy-hitting Pirates lineup: Bob Bailey, Gene Alley and Bill Mazeroski. The Forsch brothers each threw no-hitters,and the Alou brothers (Matty and Felipe) each finished one-two in the 1966 batting race. Look at the difference in batting average for Matty in 1965 and 1966. A 111-point increase. Harry Walker worked wonders with him.

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  38. JimboNovember 5, 2011 at 5:05 AM

    @27

    Barry Bonds hit over .328 during his big 4 year stretch, just missing your cutoff.

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  39. Artie ZNovember 5, 2011 at 9:53 AM

    @35 - Doug Flynn is at the top of the list of players with 1000+ games who had a negative WAR with -12.7. The only hitter I see with a higher (or lower) WAR is Bill Bergen, with -17.6 in 947 games and 3228 PAs.

    There are 4 pitchers with a WAR less than -8, led by John Coleman and Kirtley Baker with -9.5 (the others are Blondie Purcell and Crazy Schmit). All 4 finished their careers prior to 1900. Of the 33 pitchers with a career WAR less than -5, 18 of them started their careers prior to 1900 and another 6 started before 1915. Of the 9 pitchers who began their careers after 1915 (really 1930 since there is a gap from 1912 to 1931), the most "famous" is probably Mike Kekich, though that's more because of off the field stuff.

    Many of these pitchers amassed their negative WARs in a short period of time - for example, John Van Benschoten amassed his -5.0 WAR in 90 IP. Only 7 of the 33 pitchers threw more than 650 IP. There seems to be a difference between hitters amassing a large negative WAR and pitchers who do this.

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  40. topper009November 5, 2011 at 11:30 AM

    @33,
    now in theory Tony Gwynn would have hit like .420 in 1930 right (4.68 R/G vs 5.68 R/G)? Shouldn't leading the league in hitting be just as impressive if it is .301 in 1968 or .424 in 1924?

    Or, something I would like to see, besides the OPS+ which compares a number across eras, why don't we have that for every stat? HR+ or AVE+ etc. I recall reading some article on this subject about pitching K+ and Dazzy Vance was way up there in terms of having many more Ks that the league average.

    ReplyDelete

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